Learning Objectives
- Understanding audience metrics
- Generating income from podcasts
- How to look for work in podcasting
- Early career and mentoring opportunities
First, let’s ask the question: Do you really need to know how many people are listening to your podcast?
If it’s a hobby it’s nice to know – but the number of listeners is just one metric of success. It can be equally as important to reach a small but active group of engaged listeners.
However, if you want to impress a boss, a client, or have paid ads you do need to pay attention to the number of listeners.
While only a podcast publisher knows the actual number of listeners and downloads, there are a variety of chart rankers, metrics in podcast apps, and ratings and review services to evaluate podcast listening. You can also pay for data assembled by companies like Rephonic.
Downloads are a way many podcasts evaluate success. They are easy to count and are a common unit of measure for ad sales, thanks to a compliance program for download measurement by the Interactive Advertising Bureau (IAB).
Libsyn – one of the oldest and largest podcast hosting platforms offers statistics:
But, avoid just looking at downloads as a measure of success because a download doesn’t mean the episode was listened to.
As James Cridland, editor of Podnews explains, a show with 4,000 downloads doesn’t mean there were 4,000 listeners because with automatic downloads the episode may never have been listened to. Only a listen, or play indicates when a human has pushed the play button.
In addition, a small, niche show might not have large numbers but can bring in a very engaged audience who spends a lot of time listening and that is of great value to a podcaster as well as advertisers. Still, a show with fewer than 1,000 per episode is hard to monetize.
Apple Podcasts has an average consumer metric in which podcasters can see how much time and attention their podcasts are getting by looking at their analytics. To find the numbers for your podcast log into your Apple Podcast Connect account, go to Analytics, pick an episode and look for the graph that shows listeners over time. Spotify calls this metric “episode performance.”
Beyond downloads, success for a podcast can be measured in other significant ways:
Every podcast hosting service has its own analytics, research companies have their own podcast rankers and podcast companies have their own charts so there can be considerable differences because of methodology and whether the podcast was downloaded, played or streamed.
Podcast analyst Nick Quah told The Verge that, “chart-topping doesn’t mean what most people think it means.… It just says you had a lot of new interactions one given week.”
It’s also difficult to compare audience size when some podcast rankers emphasize monthly downloads while others focus on weekly audience size.
Companies that have earned the “seal of approval” for podcast measurement systems, verified by IAB Tech Lab, give an added measure of confidence for publishers and advertisers about the accuracy of audience counts.
1) Among companies that do podcast rankings, Podtrac offers monthly rankings of downloads for Top 20 Podcasts and Top 20 Podcast Publishers. However, the rankings only count podcasts that chose to “opt-in” to the service; not all podcasts do that. Podtrac says the company measures the majority of top podcast publishers. For a fee, you can see Podtrac rankings on audience categories – such as Arts, Sports or True Crime.
2) Edison Podcast Metrics is the only quarterly podcast measurement service that measures the relative audience size and demographics of all podcast networks in the U.S. Data is collected from podcast consumers ages 13 and older in the U.S., asking participants to recall which podcasts they listened to in the past week. It lists the top 50 podcasts in America by reach — not downloads — among weekly podcast consumers. Reach is the percentage of weekly podcast listeners who say they have listened to any one of these shows in the last week.
3) Triton Digital offers monthly measurement for the Top 100 podcasts based on weekly downloads over a four-week period and has some different publishers than what appears in Podtrac rankings and requires publishers to opt-in.
4) The Apple podcast “Top Shows” charts are generally understood to be a trending chart – what is popular at the moment – rather than a measure of how big or influential a podcast is overall, and The Verge says the Apple charts can be easily gamed. These do not measure downloads and since not everyone uses Apple to listen to podcasts, this is only a snippet of listenership.
5) Spotify charts feature the 200 most popular shows localized by region.
6) Chartable has a Global Top 200 podcast chart across 20 different countries based on weekly changes among the 5,000 podcasts using their proprietary feed integration. They are opt-in, so a publisher has to decide to join, free of charge.
Additional Resources:
In collaboration with several podcast industry leaders, NPR has developed an open-source listening measurement tool called Remote Audio Data (RAD). It does not replace download statistics as a point in measurement but is an effort to better understand podcast consumption because half of all podcasts are downloaded to be consumed later. The RAD framework is available to anyone.
Podcasts do make money — very big money for a select few and absolutely nothing for most creators. That’s absolutely fine if your podcast is a hobby and a labor of love, but there are some ways to make a few bucks for production expenses.
Ad experts say the future for podcast advertising will involve several different models – ad-free, subscription-based, crowdfunding and paywalls.
The position of an ad – when it appears – also impacts price. A pre-roll runs at the beginning of a podcast, a mid-roll occurs during an episode and a post-roll is at the end of an episode and has the least expensive price.
In the U.S. podcast advertising is expected to be $2 billion by 2023 despite economic headwinds, and projected to by $4 billion by 2024, according to information from the IAB.
Other forecasts are for slightly lower numbers.
A study by media intelligence company MAGNA and Spotify found that consumers are more receptive to podcast advertising than TV advertising. As for the length of podcast ads, SXM Media says their research found that 15-second ads (which are usually found just before and just after a podcast) are very effective for recall and awareness while longer 30-second or 60-seconds ads are more effective in driving understanding and moving listeners to act.
Most effective are host-read ads because listeners consider hosts to be influencers. “The reason they’ve been successful is their deep connection to listeners,” marketing executive David Raphael told Vulture magazine. He says one focus group asked listeners why they went to hotels.com. “They said, ‘Because Ira Glass told me to.’
Patreon.com is a website where fans can pay creators with contributions of their choice. Since a YouTube musician came up with the idea in 2013, some 150,000 creators have earned over $1 billion for creators from podcasts to musicians, gamers and more. Patreon takes a percentage of the earning and offers a guide on your earning potential. Resonate Recordings has some advice for setting up a Patreon account.
You can see the top 1000 Patreon creators each month.
Independent podcasters such as Tamar Avishai, creator of The Lonely Palette, say it’s time to get over asking for money. She explained how to get the most out of Patreon in her article in The Bello Collective. With 175 patrons who donate various amounts, she makes $1,000+ per episode. Other independents say don’t expect to make a lot of money but there are other rewards of podcasting, such as redirecting your career because of new skills.
Since podcasts are being done by large and small news organizations from traditional legacy media such as The Washington Post, NPR, national TV and radio news outlets as well as hometown digital news outlets, there are growing career opportunities. But that’s just the start.
Creators include major corporations, smaller entrepreneurs, local, state and federal government, religious organizations, political organizations, public interest groups, sports franchises, entertainers, book authors, and educational institutions — you name it.
All of these organizations need to hire hosts, reporters, producers, scriptwriters, artists, marketers, and sound engineers. Some people can do it all or know how to outsource and hire others. You might find such an opportunity.
NEWSLETTERS: Subscribe to industry newsletters such as Podnews by James Cridland for podjobs.net and Hot Pod by Nick Quah. Look carefully at job descriptions in ads and make sure to develop these skill sets.
TOP PUBLISHERS: Look at podcast rankers for top publishers and contact those outlets, Edison also has one.
AUDIO JOURNALISM PROFESSIONAL & TRADE PUBLICATIONS AND OUTLETS:
PAID MEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATIONS:
INTERNSHIPS: Spotify Internships, Ask local radio stations, look online for podcast production companies such as LWC Studios, colleges & universities.
SOCIAL MEDIA: In your own community, look for freelancers on a Facebook group of local podcasters.
Job titles are determined by the employer and by the style of storytelling — nonfiction vs fiction or narratives, dramas, interviews, and such. Someone with the job title of producer in one workplace may be called a story editor elsewhere and it’s not uncommon for one or two people to do multiple jobs. That can be fulfilling or frustrating depending upon your workload.
To professionalize the industry a coalition of about 40 partners in the podcasting industry developed descriptions and published in Podcast Taxonomy. This is an effort to develop standardized roles and help in job search and creation.
From Podcast Taxonomy (additional roles defined in a White Paper):
Typically the producer oversees the management of a show from concept to writing scripts, scheduling guests, doing interviews, and hiring any contractors needed for editing, distribution, or promotion but the job duties can differ widely depending upon the size of the employer and style of the podcast.
An editor could be involved in story structure or editing audio or both.
Catherine St. Louis is senior editor of podcasts at Neon Hum. In episode 10 of “Servant of Pod with Nick Quah,” she talks about creating memorable podcast moments, how she became a story editor and her love of deconstructing story structure., “I think a good podcast does three things – it educates, it enrages, it entertains,” she said.
St. Louis says part of the problem is that most people don’t understand what it means to be an editor. She says editors are made and that diversity is vital. “I wish we took more young people of color, women, and guided them so that they became editors. …I think we have to demystify that editors are somebody who are older or who are established.”
St. Louis also talks about how she approaches being a story editor on podcasts such as This Land by Crooked Media and Murder on the Towpath by Luminary — both are longer form, narrative non-fiction podcasts that have different storytelling techniques than audio dramas or interview podcasts.
Application dates vary but many return annually so keep an eye on rolling deadlines.
Although it’s hard to know revenue unless it’s self-reported, top podcasts like The New York Times’ The Daily, earn more than $1 million in revenue.
It’s a valid question whether you can turn your passion project podcast into a paid professional gig. Salaries for podcast jobs as producers, editors, production assistants, writers, and website creators fluctuate depending upon the employer, show format, and market location.
Salaries vary depending upon whether you are on staff for a media company or as a freelancer. Some companies pay by the hour, others by the day or project. You also need to pay close attention to job titles because what one employer calls a production assistant job might be labeled as an associate producer job at another, so be sure you are clear on defining the role.
In a Twitter thread, Dustlight Productions CEO Misha Euceph posted some freelance day rates:
The Podcast Host has information on negotiating fair rates for freelance podcasters.
Managers and hosts earn the most according to a survey by ZipRecruiter, which offers a free tool to type in the name of a city to find average salaries.
Freelancers will find one particularly helpful resource in AIR – the Association of Independents in Radio. This network of audio industry professionals – podcasters, journalists, story editors, audio producers, documentarians, engineers, sound designers and media entrepreneurs crosses 47 states and 30 countries. They publish a Code of Fair Practices for working with audio professionals as well as AIR Rate Guides for services. A beginning production assistant could have a day rate of $330 while a senior producer’s day rate could be $570.
In his newsletter, The Audio Insurgent, podcast creator and strategist Eric Nuzum says the most important thing for podcast creators is “knowing how to build a production budget.” He offers sage advice on people costs for creating production budgets with staff and collaborators and on additional costs like hiring freelancers and marketing.
Gimlet Media and The Ringer (owned by Spotify) ratified a three-year collective bargaining agreement with the Writers Guild America-East, (WGAE):
Click here to view the full Gimlet Media collective bargaining agreement.
Click here to view the full The Ringer collective bargaining agreement.